Boundaries Are Not Walls

What if the thing you’ve been calling a boundary is actually pushing you further away from the connection you’re craving? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW unpack the cultural confusion around boundaries—challenging the popular idea that “having boundaries” means cutting people off, shutting down, or building emotional walls. Instead, they reframe boundaries as something far more dynamic: a form of communication that helps regulate what we give and receive in relationships. Drawing from clinical insight and lived experience, they explore the difference between reacting and responding, and how true boundaries are rooted in self-awareness, not control over others. The conversation breaks down different types of boundaries—physical, emotional, mental, and even temporal—while examining how trauma, anxiety, and "social media therapy" can distort our understanding of safety and threat. They also address the discomfort that comes with setting boundaries, including guilt, people-pleasing withdrawal, and the ongoing need to reinforce them with compassion rather than rigidity. At its core, this episode invites listeners to move away from black-and-white thinking and toward something more human: flexible, thoughtful boundaries that create space not just for protection, but for connection. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

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Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Lumen, a podcast that sheds light on mental health, relationships, and what it means to be human. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW. Each episode we unpack psychological patterns that affect our relationships. No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Just thoughtful conversations to help you understand yourself and others a little more clearly. So today I thought we could talk about boundaries. And this came up. I was thinking about this yesterday quite a bit. And I was thinking about how much information is out there. And part of the reason that was like social media. Yeah. Like part of the reason that we do this is to kind of like counter, you know, a lot of like kind of people just throwing these psychological ideas out.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Bust some myths.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah. There's so there's all this talk around boundaries. The other one, so there's a lot of terms, and I think it's it's this is actually good for us to get into over the next few weeks, but there's like people overuse or misuse the word gaslighting. Yes. They misuse the word narcissism, narcissism. They misuse the the the term boundaries and just kind of like what that really means versus kind of I think how people all over the internet use it. Right. And then the other phenomenon that I would like to get into at some point is everyone kind of using online tools to determine whether they are neurodivergent and on the spectrum. Because there's a lot of people that I hear saying, hey, I think I'm I think I have autism spectrum disorder or Asperger is based on, you know, an online assessment. An online assessment or something that I saw somebody say online. And as a clinician, that's it, it's frustrating because I think, and and you probably experienced this too, and I know others, other clinicians do as well. It's frustrating because typically those those diagnoses, we're not even making those diagnoses. Those diagnoses are made through a battery of psychological and neuropsychological testing. Yeah. And we know people who do that testing. It's David, yeah, and it's uh Dr. David Rowe, a United Assessment. And you know, that's it, it's such a battery of tests, and it's so specific to to make that determination that a a quick TikTok survey is not how you're gonna find out whether there's neurodiversity.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Maybe not the best the best means.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

And so we're gonna get into some of that today, talking about you know, some of the issues around how this information is just being misused out there. But I really want to talk about boundaries and how important that is. Because I think that there's something that that gets misrepresented a lot. And boundaries are are really important as a human being to have.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. There's this, I think the the sort of pop culture version of boundaries that I keep seeing people talk about is like I have boundaries if I'm cutting somebody off. Like I just need to cut people off, I need to say no, and then that's me practicing self-care. When in reality, it's like it's not a it's not a wall. No boundary isn't isn't this like insurmountable thing. It's fluid. I mean, the boundaries the way we talk about them.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Right. Boundaries can be fluid, right? They can be, and they're different depending on the person we're dealing with. Yeah. So boundaries with family members are different than maybe boundaries with colleagues at work. And but you're right, like there's I think this is it's kind of seen as almost like this personality trait, right? Like aggressive. Yeah. I have boundaries, kind of becomes this statement and this proclamation rather than rather than this kind of like rather than you know, this kind of behavior and and kind of understanding of where where we begin in others' end.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And I think that that's that's an important thing to remember here is where where we begin in others' end and and how that can actually move depending on the relationship as well. Absolutely. So it's it's it's not it's not this proclamation of a, hey, you know, I don't like what you said, so I'm gonna cut you off. As as you were saying. And I think we've seen a lot of this with gosh, especially with politics, right? Since 2016, I think it was winding up before then. Yeah. But I think with cancel culture and in a lot of political issues, and then in COVID, and just like this perfect storm and when everybody was quarantining, of of just saying, Well, yeah, I'm gonna I don't like what you say, so I'm not gonna listen to you anymore. And you don't exist.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

And in fact, yeah, even if you're family, I'm gonna cut you off.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I think especially in in families that we see a lot of that happening, is I can't I can't tolerate what you're saying. So therefore, my my boundary is I'm not gonna listen to you anymore. I'm not gonna basically even act as if you exist. Right. Which is from a psychological standpoint, extremely negative and maladaptive.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah. It's harmful. It's so damaging. I was gonna say, it just causes a lot of harm when we pretend people don't exist.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

It comes it comes from a place of trying to protect ourselves. I think when we think about making making that statement of like I have boundaries, or these are my boundaries. I think it it does come from this place of trying to to protect ourselves and insulate ourselves. And I'm wondering, you know, in your experience, where where have you seen that, like where people have tried to protect themselves with boundaries?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

There are certainly like really healthy applications of boundaries within that context that you're talking about. For instance, if an adult child has been abused by a parent and they find themselves in an enmeshed relationship or a codependent relationship with that abusive parent, having a boundary with that parent and being able to say, hey, I'm not going to participate in this type of behavior or this relationship anymore. That's that's healthy. That comes up. It comes up with work so many times. And we've even talked about in past episodes where an employee will have boundary issues with a boss or a supervisor or a manager where they're being essentially asked to do too much. Right. And they'll feel like, you know, I need to assert a boundary here so that I can sort of like get my sense of agency back and get a sentence of my life back. Those are two that come to mind right away.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

So this idea of re regaining a sense of agency. And we've talked about agency before, right? That idea that I have I have a say in my life.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Is that it's yeah, it's it's uh autonomy, agency, control. Okay. Control. We I think so much maladaptive behavior stems from compulsion, desire, need to control other people. And I think as we get healthier, arguably, we realize the limitations of that. Like, wow, I really can't control other people, situations, circumstances, environments. But I can control you know, boundaries is something that we do have autonomy over. We do have a control over. I love the Victor Frankel quote from Man's Search for Meaning, the last of the human freedoms, to decide one's attitude. How we choose to view our circumstances, we can't control our circumstances. We may be in terrible uh circumstances, sure, but we can effectively have a boundary. We can draw a boundary, even if we feel completely powerless when we really look at it, I think from a therapeutic standpoint, a boundary can be drawn so long as we have so long as we're in our bodies and we have some agency. We have more agency perhaps than we think.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. And so in that in that case, when you say when you're when you're saying we draw a boundary, that's is is that a hard line in the in the sand?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

It can feel like that, especially if the person is dealing with, you know, a past history of abuse or trauma of one form or another, then yeah, I think often a boundary does tend to look really, really, really rigid, not just a line in the sand, but like a a wall. Sure, sure. And I think what tends to happen as boundaries are lived in and we get some practice having boundaries, we realize that there can be some fluidity. It isn't necessarily something that has to stand for all time in its current state.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Right. And I and I think in the and the the thing I I I like that you're highlighting here is you know, when we talk about that safety, right? And we and we think about that's that's a really good example and an explanation of how if if we've been in danger, a boundary can be really protective. Right. I'm not going to entertain this anymore, I'm not going to allow this thing in, I'm not going to allow this to happen anymore, or this person, or whatever it was that was hurting us. It's interesting because I think a lot, and we've we've discussed as we've discussed, I think that one of the struggles we have as as a culture and as a society now, what we see a lot of people dealing with is that everything becomes ever everything is interpreted as a danger.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

As a trigger.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Right. And and we well, we can get into that. But yeah, people feel triggered. People feel they feel scared. I think there's a level of anxiety and and an inability to tolerate some really uncomfortable things. And so I think that that's when we start looking at that, it's we realize that if everything looks dangerous to us, then that rigid boundary, that wall, becomes a very easy solution. Absolutely. It's not healthy. Because it's not healthy to walk through life thinking everything's dangerous either.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

No, it's it's gonna I mean you're gonna deplete your yourself. And the other thing is, you know, we see the world not as it is. We see the world as we are. It's just the tendency. And so if I am living with, for example, post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, like a PTSD real where my past experiences, traumas are very much in the present for me, I'm gonna view the world as a very hostile place and I am gonna draw those really rigid boundaries in order to protect myself. If I can view, if if I've if my sort of equilibrium is more balanced, if I'm viewing the world not as a hostile environment, but as a potentially friendly environment, a place where I feel comfortable and safe, then the boundaries can be, as I said before, a little bit more fluid, right? A little more healthy, a little healthier.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Exactly. Exactly. So let's talk about a little bit, you know, we'll we'll we'll kind of discuss what boundaries actually are. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're this is this is really good, kind of looking at like, hey, maybe here's here's some of the the reason why we're throwing up these walls, and especially if we're talking about safety. We can get into maybe some of the experience of people not having boundaries and and how that could be a really open or there's no wall at all. Right. But so boundaries are they they're kind of how we communicate, you know, if we think about it. And it's it's boundaries are a clear statement about what we can hold and what we can't hold.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

And we start looking at that in the way of like it's it's kind of about you know how we relate to other people in a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

They're behavioral. They're behavioral, exactly. Exactly. And so it it they they help us regulate the information that we give out, they also help us regulate the information that we take in. And to be in a relationship, we have to have that flow. To be, and that's any relationship. That can be an intimate relationship with a partner, that can be a friendship, that can be just with the cashier at the grocery store. So when we talk about relationships, I talk about like all human interaction.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And so boundaries are they are kind of the valve, I think, of how how that information goes in and out. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

And the and a framework as well. But the the thing that I think can help when we're drawing boundaries and kind of defining boundaries for ourselves is to realize that, and this is a big insight for me, boundaries aren't really about other people's behavior. They're about, as you said, the valve. They're about a valve that we adjust in ourselves, in and of ourselves. And that's why I think you know, we were talking about autonomy. You know, boundaries are associated with autonomy. It's I can't control other people's behavior, but I can control how I respond to it.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And the degree to which I I choose to participate or not.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

It sounds again like you're saying that that a person has to have a good understanding of themselves in order to make sure that valve is working correctly.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Absolutely. I think that and that's where that's where boundaries really start. So many of the so much of the time, boundaries, we think we have to have boundaries as a reaction. And it starts with somebody else's behavior.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Remind me, remind me the difference between reacting and responding.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Reacting is I'm I'll use the overused word again, triggered. I'm in a I'm in a state of high alert. I'm not really thinking, I'm I'm reacting. Means I'm it can be a compulsive or an impulsive reaction, it can be violent, it usually doesn't have a lot of thought involved. It's usually something that we regret later. Um how about you know, you step on my foot, I don't know you, I say, hey, watch where you're going. That's me reacting. You reacting to that is saying, you know, you want to go? Yeah, you want to go move. Come at me, bro. Come at me. You know, that's that's reactive. Responding is measured. There's usually a pause before a response, and a response is an autonomous, meaning a self-controlled way to, I'll be redundant, respond to a potential trigger, a potential stressor.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Right. And that's that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Considered behavior.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. Considered behavior. We we in in all of this, and all the things we talk about, I think we we typically go back to we we want response versus reaction.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Always.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Right. Reaction is that it's that anxiety, fight or flight, kind of like, oh my god, I'm in danger. Something happened, I gotta fight back. Stress response. Yeah. And respond that's reaction. And response is I'm going to think about, you know, I'm gonna use the human part of me, right? The the reasonable part to respond to this and think about, oh, maybe I maybe I stepped on your foot by accident, maybe I didn't see you there, maybe I maybe I stumbled and accidentally bumped into you.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting how a response changes the environment immediately. It will it will affect, I mean, just like a reaction affects how the other person, you know, gets in your face or not. Yeah. A response really chills people out.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, it allows it allows for grace too. We talk, I think we talked a lot about grace. I've talked about it before. It's been it's been the thing. I don't know why I've been on it lately. But it's a great Jeff Buckley album. Yeah, it is. I think I think that when we when we have when we respond, we are considering grace. And again, grace is having grace for ourselves and for other people is having a relationship with our limitations and expectations that we haven't met, and being kind about that. So I think compassion come with grace. Those are amazing, amazing words. Patience and compassion, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

And what we and we uh how much we allow ourselves, how much we allow somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah. Speaking of stepping on on feet, one of the one of the kind of boundaries that we can we can look at are so we have physical boundaries. That's there's three different kinds of boundaries. There may be more, but we'll talk about these three. But there's physical boundaries, which are knowing, you know, where our body is and where that ends, and kind of like what our space is around us, and what what level of touch we're comfortable with. And I think you kind of made made reference to this before when you talk about survivors of abuse, of physical abuse, sexual abuse, just any kind of violence, physical violence that we we experience, or even it can be as simple as just somebody accidentally bumping into us on the subway. Right? We have a we have a sense of our physical boundary. I think I think they say like our physical boundary typically we need three feet of space around us, right, in order to walk around the world. I remember living in New York that that was not a possibility. The more people you cram into a space, the less boundary you get, physical boundary.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

And it was so interesting. Like it I'm sure you have this experience. Get on a crowded subway train and the tension is so high.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

You can feel it.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Tension is so high, inevitably. Even if you're just going one stop, yeah, someone will say something to somebody, and there will be a couple of things.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

You can feel you know it's funny. I yeah, we lived in New York for almost 20 years. I was commuting in and out at least for 25 or almost 25. It was I never I never realized until I went back after I left. So you get desensitized, and I think that's an important thing to to recognize here. If you're if you're constantly exposed to a lack of boundary, right? You're it changes. As you said, it's fluid. It's and so I remember going back in the the first time after we left New York to to be on the train, and it was like, oh, I don't, I don't like this. And then I was like, maybe, maybe that whole time I didn't like it, and it, but I just became desensitized to it.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

And then you get into the whole like, oh, that's probably why a cortisol and everything else was like through the roof at the time. But it's I think I think that's an it was just it was just a funny thing to think about. It's that tension that I felt though, that you're referencing. And every time I go back now, I feel it. I'm like, that's I don't have to, I have some autonomy and some agency. I don't have to live like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. So but that's a wonderful, I think, example of a physical boundary.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

You know, like that three feet of space.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Exactly. And I think it it is important to to think about this. Like boundaries are not just, as I as I said, related to like some kind of physical assault or or infraction upon, you know, your your freedom. They can just be everyday little kind of like experiences. And that over time, when we think about it, can be difficult and traumatizing and lasting in its effect. And again, I'm using the word trauma lightly there, kind of like one of those other words we we kind of like throw out there. But when when you think about it, it's it's just consistent experience over time, it affects a change on us. For for the positive or negative.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

No, for sure. For sure. Emotional boundaries are another type of boundary that I think don't get talked about enough, but we we need them.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about emotional boundaries and what what your understanding is of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Having good emotional boundaries means we don't means we sort of like stay away from codependency. We tend and enmeshment. In other words, we don't take responsibility for other people's feelings. That's codependency, right? That's a part of codependency. Okay. Part of codependency and enmeshment means, yeah, if you have a bad day, I have a bad day. If you're happy, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, if you're feeling away, then then I'm going to have to feel that way too. Kind of right. Like you, it's yeah. That would be that would be a lack of an emotional boundary, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

There's no boundary. And that's why, you know, that's why I love the word enmeshment because it literally describes that idea of like being caught in the net of somebody else. Yeah. You know, the mesh of somebody. Oh, totally. But the thing about emotional boundaries is that they are the most commonly violated, even more, far more than like physical boundaries. And if you think about it, a a funny sort of pop culture example is like the the mom who makes you feel guilty. You know, you're never cool, you're never right, you know. And and so anyone who sort of is pushing you or trying to manipulate you into having a guilt response, they're violating your emotional boundaries. Anytime someone is telling you how to feel.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Now that can be direct, like you need to feel this way, why don't you feel this way? Why don't you feel bad about this? Or it can be more subtle, right? Yeah. Where where it's it's it's almost a manipulation or or the feeling is is is kind of drawn out of you over over time, over experience, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Absolutely. That's going back to that silly, you know. Guilt guilt inducing mother example, you know, yeah, she could she could she could say something very direct, like you should be ashamed of the fact that you haven't called me. Or she could take a more passive aggressive, less direct approach, which works for a lot of people, which is say, you know, you call. Oh, hi mom, how are you? Oh, well, I guess I'm all right. Yeah. I've been pause.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

I've been sitting here. We I've been wondering where you were, if you were gonna call.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, I've just been concerned for your safety because you haven't called in ooh, look, three and a half weeks. And then of course I'm gonna feel like ooh.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

I feel like that one's gonna really hit with a few people.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Oh, I'm fine. I'm fine though. I have my cookbooks. And it's just and then you're just like, yeah, I feel but that's violating an emotional boundary. And a healthy emotional boundary says, hey, your feelings are yours, my feelings are mine, and I'm not responsible for how you feel. I can doesn't mean I don't care about you. Right. I care about how you feel.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

And my behaviors can have an impact on how you feel, but I'm not responsible for the feeling that takes place. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Ultimately we make our own decisions about how we feel. I love, you know, that this is an idea borrowed from recovery, I think from 12-step recovery. There are no victims, only volunteers. There comes a point where we there certainly are victims in this world. It's not to say that they're victims of violence and terrible things and manipulations of all sorts. There does come a point, I think, especially if somebody's on a mental health journey or a recovery journey, where we say, All right, I need to take control of my own life. I need to respond rather than react. You know?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

It is, and I think I when I when I think about how that comes up maybe in conversations, sometimes in sessions, it's this idea of at some point our our experiences, they the outside, the outside feelings and voices become our voice.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

We end up taking a lot of that on. So I think of that when you say like, oh, there are no victims, there's only volunteers. And and when we set aside, you know, people who are victimized in in in some of those experiences, but this this idea of like the boundaries, like, oh no, I I don't have to allow those things. It doesn't have to be my voice. Right. If you're feeling a certain way about our interaction, I can take that into consideration.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

But I I have some say over that, and you have some say over that. And that's that's going back to this idea that boundaries are in fact communication. They they they are they are that kind of playground for communication, they help us regulate what what goes in and out.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

I love that because I think there's a tendency to be scared of boundaries or to be intimidated or f by them or angered by them. Right. Like, you know, like a no trespassing.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Because we think of them as limits. Yeah. They're not limits.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Well, I love that when you think of it, when you conceive of them as a form of communication.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And a framework for having a healthy dynamic, a healthy relationship with somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

That's a great word to explain it. Framework. Yeah. So the other boundary that we can get into is the so we did physical, we have emotional boundaries, and then we have mental and intellectual boundaries. Oh yes. And these are where we have we establish a right to our own thoughts, opinions, and beliefs. And this is this is it's different than feelings, right? Because we think about like I have, I have right to my whether I want to feel guilty, I have the right whether I want to feel sad or happy in a situation. But now, but then we get into this idea that I have I have a right to my own opinion or belief. And this is actually where I think we get caught caught up more in what we see culturally right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

With the politics. With politics. Big time.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I don't believe in what you believe in, and I might think that you have a right to believe that, but now I don't believe that, so I'm just gonna wall you off. And I think that that's where this actually really becomes dangerous and unhealthy.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

It's yeah, because it it's just it's we what we need is connection. And if, as you say, which I endorse, boundaries are a form of communication, that means they're they're a bridge. And if we are taking ideology, you know, which I think is the heart of these mental and intellectual boundaries, and using it as a as a sort of weapon, it's it's just awful because like you see it all the time. You shouldn't feel that you you shouldn't have that opinion, right? You shouldn't think that way, you shouldn't be able to do that. You shouldn't believe that way. And if you don't think the way I think, then we can't be friends.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

That's right. Or you are this, or you are this, you know, and fill in fill into whatever this might be. Right. You know, you're too soft, you're pink o'came, right, socialist, or yeah, or you're a fashionist, or you're a fascist, or you're a Nazi, yeah, or you're racist.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I was on the phone with a friend yesterday, and he is more conservative than I am. We have a long-standing relationship, and he and he said at one point, he said, you know, I believe about 80% of what you believe. And that 20% where we differ intellectually, ideologically, yeah, is not nearly enough for me to end my relationship with you, my friendship with you. And I hope it's not enough for you to end your relationship with me.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Wow. Yeah. That's a really I love that example, Kenyon, and I love I love that idea of 20% isn't enough to end this relationship. It's something that's a good question for people maybe to reflect on. What percentage is enough to end a relationship, right? What percentage of in in in I think some of the complicating factors in that, what percentage of just I don't believe the things you believe in is enough to to not have this relationship?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Or what percentage of unhealthy behavior? Because then because I think that differs, right? It's good. That's gonna be, well, you're really unhealthy and hurtful being, you know, I this like 10% of the time I can't be around that, but maybe I can tolerate 40% of your different opinions. Right. So it's it's I think that's that's where boundaries become complicated, but that we have to have a we have to have a better understanding of our of ourselves, what we can handle. Remember, boundaries are what it's it's how we understand what we can handle, right? And how much we can take on and how much we can't.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Because as human beings, we need to be able to take on things that that we don't like.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Absolutely. There has to be some room for discomfort.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, we're not, we're not, we it can't be, it can't all feel good all the time.

unknown 29:21

No.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

In fact, I think life does not typically feel good all the time.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

No. That's why we have shoes, outside shoes, and we don't wear slippers all the time. Although we do wear Uggs if you were announced.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

If you swing through the middle school and I drop my kid off, everybody's wearing Ug slippers and pajama pants and hoodies. And I'm like, You're right. But then again, I think they're all too soft. So they're all soft. Your kids are too soft these days. But yeah, you we can't we can't be comfortable all the time. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

And and and and a mental boundary is great because it it again creates a framework for that level of discomfort and it contains it. Yeah. So if I have a mental boundary, I I'm saying, hey, I'm allowed to think differently than you, and you're allowed to think differently than me. I don't, you know, I don't need your approval or validation to think the way I do. You don't need mine, or to exist. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

So what's so cool is that and you're saying, Oh, you don't need my approval in order to think a certain way, and I don't need yours. Yet we can still sit in the same room and have a conversation or have a cup of coffee together or ride the subway together. Totally. We could we could probably find something somewhere to have a discussion about. Absolutely. But that requires curiosity. It does. And it and and it requires some some a pause to understand that you are allowed to exist and I am allowed to exist in in our own kind of like silos. Yeah. And and but they're not they're not walled off, they don't have to be, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Exactly. Again, there's that idea of the permeable boundary or the the the shifting boundary.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Exactly. When I um when I started off in this field, I when I first moved to New York, I was working at a substance abuse program, just outpatient program, intensive outpatient, and I remember running these groups, and I must have been 25. I barely knew what I was doing. I still don't really know what I'm doing. But like the older I get, the less I know. Exactly. It's I'm it's I'm more confident about it now, though. And then I was like, I was like, yeah, I know everything. But I remember talking about boundaries, and I and and you know, the group of the group of people that we were working with, it was they were people coming in early recovery where they had been through you know years after years after years of of drug abuse and alcoholism, and they they had no idea about boundaries. And I remember getting up and drawing on the dry erase board, like here are the three boundaries. You have a wall, you have a dotted line, and you have just openness in my little stick figure drawing, and I was like, this is the easiest way to remember this. We have solid, we have porous, and we have none. Right. We really want the the porous one. I think of the ozone, right? I think of all these, or I think of like I had to be a total dork here, like Star Trek. When we talk about resilience, we talk about boundaries are the same. It's like a force field around field. Yeah, we don't want everything bouncing off. Then we're walled off, we're cold. We we don't allow things in and we don't allow things out. Right. We want some, say we want like a screen. Like like you open your window, you don't want all the bugs and mosquitoes coming in. You want the nice fresh air.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

That's kind of like that's how I look at boundaries. We want like a nice, like a new screen that doesn't allow all the bugs in. It's it's not all cloudy and weird and old. It's like a nice new one. You could see through it really well, yeah, and we still get that fresh air. And then we get to yell out to our neighbors, hey, how you doing? Like out the window.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

I love that. That is again, it's it's it's great because it's a conception, a conceptualization of a boundary, not as something that's dire, that's dangerous, that's fraught with conflict.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I think so many people equate boundaries to conflict, but here you're saying, no, it's the opposite. It's a again, it's a way to connect with other people.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

And interact.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

And keeping on the window screen analogy, you have the ability to slide it open. Right. And hand your neighbor a chocolate chip cookie. Or not. Or be like, yeah, sorry, no cookies for you. No cookies for you, and no scripture.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Shut your window very quickly. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah, maybe that happens. Maybe sometimes you're like, Yeah, I don't I don't like what I see out there, so I'm gonna close the window. It does happen briefly. But you can but it's not painted shut.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

No.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

And that's I think that's the the the important part of this is like we get to we get to have control. There's that agency that you were talking about before. We get to have control over the window. Right. Where that has the screen. Yeah. No, it's huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

There's some other boundaries that that we can kind of there's one that I want to call out because it's a tough one for me, and that's a temporal boundary, a time the boundary of time. Sure. And it's the idea of like having a time boundary, a temporal boundary, is how do we protect our time, our energy, our resources? Sort of the idea that, hey, we are a limited resource. I'm saying no to something that's going to deplete me. Really tough for me. I I want to say yes. We've talked about this in other episodes. I want to say yes to everything and to everybody because I'm a dreamer and I and I get excited. But the reality is it's like we can't we do need these time boundaries because we can't always be just perpetually available. We can't say yes to everything. Because we do have time. We are bound by time. We are bound by time, everybody is, and you know, so again, people pleasing, it's it's tough for people pleasers to have these kinds of boundaries around time, but they're essential because when they're violated, somebody else's emergency becomes ours. And it's kind of like you're you're living somebody else's life.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

And it's and so I I think it's again, I I think that's an important one to call out. Our time is precious, our time is a resource, and it's important to I think understand that. I was gonna say protect it.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

But just to understand I think, yeah, I uh protect it almost seems like it's you know, you gotta it's it's I I like that. But to to understand it, time's f it's finite, right? I mean, that's that's it's so what I th I think about I had this the this mentor in school, this professor, and he he used to he told us he goes, sessions begin and end on time.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

And that's okay if things are not resolved. Then we get into like emotional boundaries, and it it's funny how the the the time boundary, the temporal boundary, actually starts to affect these other things, right? Like you talked about people pleasing, how that affects uh or people pleasing affects your your your time boundary, but it affects then those feelings of guilt are are our emotional boundaries. Yeah. If I if I stop this thing right now because I'm bound by time, oh this other person might they might start to feel a certain way about me. Right. And remember, like when we were talking about emotional boundaries, like um, you know, because you feel a certain way about me, then I feel a certain way. Right. That it goes the other way too. It's a two-way street. If I feel a certain way, then you must feel this way. And that's a cognitive distortion, that's an unhelpful thinking style, right? That's that projection again. So but I think about that as like, oh, if I if I tell a friend, if I'm out getting coffee with somebody, I say, you know what, actually, I gotta go, they might be sad, they might be disappointed, they might feel let down. Actually, probably not. They're probably they're probably like, okay, cool, yeah, I gotta go too. Yeah, but the that's the reality of it. But that that pang of guilt or or worry or or sadness or even shame sometimes that that we might have over setting a a boundary about time. That's that's that's something that we need to understand and that it's a good exercise. I think a lot of people actually probably struggle with with time boundary, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

I have struggled with it my whole life. Yeah. You know, you mentioned sessions, like my sessions are notorious for running late, you know, like because I I'll I'll get caught, especially if something's intense. Yeah. I see it with like timekeeping it, you know, meetings, support groups. If there's, you know, the way those things function is with a container. People can't be allowed to just talk, you know, if it's sharing, it there does need to be a time limit. Usually it's three minutes. And yeah, you know, it's it can be tough to be the timekeeper and have to say, sorry, your time's up.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

It can be. The last the last program I worked for, the owner of the program would come in and he was so he and he just he drove this home and he was he was so on point with this. He's like, we and he said it the same exact way. We need a container. Meetings, you have to have somebody that that contains every meeting, every interaction you have, especially when you're dealing with a group of people. His his joke was always uh it we had to have the structure because it's a bunch of social workers all around a table at the same time. And if you want to put a bunch of people who like who need time and constraints, put a bunch of therapists around a table, and just they're just gonna figure it out and it feels good. And this was always his joke about it. It was like, oh yeah, it's just you're all gonna walk into a room and think that you're just gonna figure it out, and there's no container, there's no structure, there's nothing. We need it, yeah, because it really helps and it helps move things, and it's so it's so much better. It made us all feel better having the container and having that structure, and it does in support groups, it does everywhere because then I know what my expectations are.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

No anxiety about that. Okay, I can get what I boom, boom, boom. Here's what I want to say, it's done, it's out. Yeah, no, there's a safety in that. Yeah. So I want to go back and just talk about maybe where a lot of what we see online, where this is kind of getting it, where it's it was getting it wrong. TikTok therapy. Yeah, TikTok therapy, and and where where maybe this may where we need to just reiterate where this is right. Right. And you know, I think that when we look at boundaries as cutoffs, that's that's not healthy. We're not looking at like blocking someone, ending relationship, going no contact, they can they can be the right choice for safety. They can be the right choice in your life, and and please, I'm not telling people not to not to block people or to cut people off if they need to. Who feel harmful, right? But it's not a boundary. So let's not call it a boundary. We call it what it is. I'm blocking this person because I I can't tolerate what they how they live their life, what they say, or what the impact it has on me.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

It's a decision, it's a behavior.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

I mean, or it it's it's yeah. I'm making a decision right not drawing a boundary, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

A boundary in that situation would be it it's gonna keep a door available. So we have a boundary where we're we're having there's a door. Now we can close it, yeah, but we could say if you so a good example of this is if you speak to me that way, I'm going to leave the conversation. So you're you're you're you're giving out a warning. You're giving out this this kind of saying, I don't like this. This is actually this is actually encroaching on my boundaries. If you continue this way, I'm going to leave. Right. Now that's different than just slamming the door and going no contact. Or ghosting, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

But no, that's a really good point. Yeah. And you're also you're giving somebody a framework within which to continue a conversation with you.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

It's not about ending things. It's like, hey, I'm I want I really want to keep talking. In order for us to keep talking, I need this.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah. You're setting setting the stage, setting that framework. I love you you've used that word a few times today. I really I love the word framework today. Yeah. It's it is, it's a structure that we have to use. It's useful for me. Boundaries is a preference. My boundary is I don't discuss my weight or my you know my beliefs about something. And if it's a topic you don't want to engage in, that's fine. But that's not, it's just not the same as a boundary. It's just a topic. It's a preference. It's a preference.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Yeah. That's all. I prefer not. I think of Bartleby the Scrivener. That's an Urban Melville short story. That's right. Bartleby, will you do this job? I'd prefer not. I'd prefer not. He's not saying no.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

He's just talking about his preference. He's just saying I don't like that versus I I can't.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

There's so many things I engage with that I that I need to engage in that I don't like, but I have to do them. That's right. I have to go through it. I have to do laundry.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

I don't want to do the dishes. Right. But actually, that's not true. I love actually doing the dishes.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

That chills me out. But yeah. But when I see a pl a sink full of dirty dishes, I get stressed.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Exactly. And then uh the other one is uh the boundaries without discomfort. Like this this whole kind of wellness idea is that it implies when once you state it clearly, the other person respects it and you feel great. That's not typically that's that's not always how it how it works.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Not at all in my family. It's like training a puppy. Like the boundary is introduced, and then the boundary needs to be redrawn. And I've found that it needs to be redrawn with compassion rather than you know, a firm hand.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

It's the cost of doing what we call the work.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

We when we talk yeah, when we talked about people pleasing, I remember I I I had said that the the withdrawal symptom of stopping people pleasing is guilt.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

It's the same thing here. When we set a boundary, it doesn't mean we set a boundary and we're good. And like it feels great. I set a boundary and look at me. Yeah. You might you might get a little charge out of it, but boundaries are really uncomfortable. Yeah. Because because we're dealing with a relationship and because the other person just might not get it. It doesn't mean they're mean, it doesn't mean they're trying to be hurtful, it doesn't mean that they are awful. Yeah, stupid. It can. They could be mean or awful. Yeah. Right. It but we we have to help others understand what our boundary is. That's our responsibility in a relationship. How do I how do I express this? Other person, kind of how I move through the world and how do I understand that for myself?

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for listening to Lumen. If today's conversation resonated with you, we encourage you to follow, review, and share Lumen with anyone you think would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

We'll be back soon with another conversation designed to bring a little more light to the human condition. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW. And I'm Kenyan Phillips, LMSW. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you're experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact Local Emergency Services or a trusted mental health professional.