Codependency: When Caring Becomes Too Much

There’s a version of love where the appearance of devotion masks self-abandonment, and the line between two people becomes blurred beyond all recognition. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore one of the most widely used and misunderstood concepts in modern mental health lingo: codependency. Drawing from its roots in addiction research and clinical experience, they examine how a term originally used to describe patterns in families affected by substance use has expanded into something far broader—and is often used to mislabel normal human connection as pathology. Christopher and Kenyon clarify the difference between healthy interdependence and true codependency, which they define as a pattern in which your sense of self, emotional stability, and worth become organized around managing, fixing, or controlling another person. The conversation explores how this shows up internally—from hypervigilance and guilt to losing touch with your own needs—and how these patterns often begin as adaptive responses to unstable environments. The episode also offers practical, compassionate guidance for shifting the pattern so you can reconnect with your own internal experience, practice detachment with love, and care for someone without losing yourself.

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

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Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Lumen, a podcast that sheds light on mental health, relationships, and what it means to be human. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW. Each episode we unpack psychological patterns that affect our relationships. No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Just thoughtful conversations to help you understand yourself and others a little more clearly. Today we are going to talk about codependency.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Codependency. It's a word we hear a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

When caring becomes too like you lose yourself in it.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah. When you care too much and your life becomes organized around somebody else. The way I talk about it with clients a lot is rather than being the star of your own movie, you become a supporting role in somebody else's movie. The joke about codependence is that when they die, they see somebody else's life flash before their eyes.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

That's an awful feeling. But you're like the best supporting role. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

You're in you're you're getting an Oscar nom.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Right. Because it because everything about this relationship, this kind of phenomenon looks like you are the most caring. You are everything depend is dependent on that other person's.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

No, you're like the perfect friend, the perfect parent, the perfect partner. Right. But it, you know, it does. It looks like incredible devotion and care from the outside. But on the inside, if you're the person doing that, doing that caretaking, if you're the codependent person, you feel like you're drowning. You're reorganizing your whole day around somebody else's mood, somebody's whims. You feel responsible for their pain, for their happiness, for the choices they make. If there's you know recovery involved, you you feel responsible for their sobriety.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Absolutely. And and I think the the difficult part here, Kenyon, is that that feeling happens, but most people don't have the word to identify it. Right. They, you know, it feels like drowning, or it feels like resentment, or it feels like anger building, but there's not really a an identified word, or maybe that that draw. It's just happening through the relationship, but we don't really have the word for it, so we can't say, oh, it's this thing that's happening. And the issue and what we're going to talk cover today as we talk about codependency is how this gets conflated with just being a good human being.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Just being a caring partner or parent or friend.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Exactly. And we're going to talk about how this is this is again one of those overused words on social media and through a lot of what we hear out in the public. It's just one of these things that as as we've been talking about, like gaslighting and boundaries and trauma, codependency is another word that gets overused or maybe Used incorrectly. Yeah, misused. And I I like that idea more because I still think we need to use these words because they define an issue.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: They do. And the problem is, I mean, I the the central issue with codependency, I think, is what it costs us to be codependent. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Right. So let's talk a little bit about why the word codependency gets complicated. And you know, this isn't this this word came out of, you know, a lot of addiction treatment and addiction research in the in the 80s when we really started putting more effort into finding out like really what's behind these patterns of in in addiction, other than just the use. And specifically, researchers found patterns that were observed in partners and family members of people that were alcoholics or had alcohol use disorder.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's when I first heard it. We had an intervention for a family member who had an alcohol use disorder. And that and this probably would have been 1988. Yeah. And there was yeah, the codependency was the watchword.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Don't be codependent.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah. And it was a really useful way to describe the ways people around somebody who had an active addiction would organize their lives around managing that person or fixing that person or trying to control the addiction. So what we would see is like every, you know, this would be like the mom trying to like maybe rationalize or caretake or or kind of like making sure there wasn't alcohol in the house, or the dad was getting home, like, oh, there would be no alcohol in the house, there'd be nothing that would that could be like used. Or set anybody else. Or set. Yeah. So you start getting into that whole that whole realm too of like, let's not upset the person who has the act of addiction.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

So everybody's walking on eggshells. Right. But it's so everybody in the family ends up managing their life and or in in in the other person's life just to kind of keep everything status quo. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

You become like hyper-vigilant about the other person, the person who's the problem or the issue. You hear the term walking on eggshells a lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Trevor Burrus Absolutely. Absolutely. And so what happened next is that that term ended up getting broader and broader, as as a lot do, right? And as as kind of I think use scenarios change and as time goes on, we now it's used to describe anyone who cares deeply, worries about others or finds meaning in relationships. And I think that's where we want to like kind of say, hey, this is where we want to call it out. That's not that's not a bad thing if you care deeply, worry about others or find meaning in relationships.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

No. I did Barbara Streisand sang famously people who need people are the luckiest people of all. We do I think we you and I talk about connection all the time as a measurement of mental health. Like how connected are we to other people? Yes, it's okay to need people.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Right. There's a term for that, and that's called interdependence. And interdependence versus codependence, and we're going to come back to this a couple times today, but I want interdependence means it is that need for other people. Codependence is when you're immersing yourself in in somebody else's life, that your your life is defined by the other person's existence. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

And your value. You derive all of your value and self-esteem and self-worth from the degree to which you can manage, quote unquote, manage somebody else's life. Aaron Powell That's right. Aaron Powell So the question there is it's not do you care about other people?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

No.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

It's have you stopped existing as a separate person in the process of caring for other people? That's the question for somebody who is, I think, a legit codependent.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Aaron Powell Well, this goes back to the boundary conversation we had. And I think it's the the question is, do I know where I end and another person begins?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Totally. And if and if we recall that, that's that's we need not a hard definitive line on that, but we need to have a real solid understanding of what that line is. Now we we're supposed to have control over where that line is. But if we if we don't have an understanding of where we end and another person begins, then that can actually be a really healthy space for a or not healthy space, but it's a space where codependency kind of grows in its way, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, that's the dark, warm environment that needs to spawn.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Trevor Burrus, it's healthy for this thing, which is maladaptive or can be maladaptive. And again, I wanna I wanna be clear that codependency is not it doesn't have to be a bad thing. And I think we we talk about the the term, it gets used as a bad thing. It's kind of a oh, you're codependent. There are many situations when you think about parents who love each other or or love their children or love each other or families where you wanna be caring. You want to be you want to have to be there for somebody consistently. Sure. And there's there's going to be situations where, yeah, my happiness, it does rely somewhat on whether my partner is happy or not. Like if my partner is miserable or angry, then it's gonna feel crappy for me too. And if it's because I did something or didn't do something, right, then then I do need some level of of codependency. There's some level of like having my my internal feelings rely on what their reaction is to judge whether I should be like making adjustments in the case. How accountable we are. I want to make an adjustment in the relationship. So it's not all bad.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

No, no, no, no. And that's why it's worth discussing. Right. Let's define it. Right. I mean, the clinical definition of codependency is a pattern where your sense of self, your emotional stability, your sense of worth, your self-esteem become organized around managing, fixing, saving or controlling another person. And usually that other person is somebody whose behavior is unpredictable, painful, problematic.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah. That's the distinction right there. So when I was giving the example of codependency as like an okay thing, it's that distinction where the person that you're in a relationship with, it's that their behavior isn't unpredictable or painful. That's why this term was really came out of like addiction research, because when we look at people with substance use disorders or alcohol use disorder, that's there's just so much unpredictability and pain for for the individual and for the people around them.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

So Especially for the people around them. Yeah. Like anybody who's grown up in home where there was somebody with alcohol use disorder, a parent or whatever, they yeah, they they grow up with that unpredictability and they grow up with a strong compulsion, I would say, to try to control the environment and the unpredictable person. Yeah. Through manipulation, through various everything strategies and people pleasing.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

That's right. So I want to break this down a little bit. So you gave the core definition, which is, you know, so self-worth being tied to another person's state. That means if that person's okay, I'm okay. Right. If they're not okay, I'm not okay. It's super simple. Right. So if if if that person's happy, I can be happy. If that person's angry, then I have to I have to be aware of what that anger is, and I have to be really nervous about what that anger is. And I might even start to blame myself for that.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Oh, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

So then and then that feeds into the compulsive caretaking. So then I start as a as an example, I I would start anticipating the the needs of that person before they even express them.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

So people who are engaging this or or kind of like have this as like a relational kind of like experience, they start to kind of always walk around and like look and try and anticipate what is this person feeling? What mood are they in? How are they going to walk through the door after work today?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Aaron Ross Powell This is the, I think, typical trademark walking on eggshells. That idea.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I have to walk on eggshells, I have to be very quiet, very careful, be very deliberate. That's called compulsive caretaking.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

It's also called trying to control somebody else. Just doing it really. I'm being very helpful, aren't I?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Aaron Ross Powell Well, that's it's really funny because it's that you say that that way, because it it is you you start when we think of like people trying to control others, we think of it being malicious. The thing you're explaining is actually it's not malicious. No. It's not draconian. It's survival.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

And and and we're going to get into that. This codependency is kind of born of people needing to survive in in situations.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Aaron Powell That's so important to point out because I think so many uh so many of us, and I've been labeled a codependent for sure, we we have shame about it. It's like, oh, how could you be so weak? How could you be so pathetic as to be a codependent? But yeah, no, I mean what you're suggesting here, I think, is that this is this is an adaptation. This is a survival mechanism.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

And it's intelligent. When i if you're growing up in an unpredictable home where somebody does have an alcohol use disorder or somebody's violent, being attuned to everyone around you, that's how you get by.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

By the way, if we if we expand from from that kind of environment and we start to look at that can be larger household, that can be school, that can be community. Absolutely. If we if we really start to look at workplace. Absolutely. This is this is this expands much further than just within the home or within a singular relationship. We we can actually see this because as social workers uh we're always looking at like the bigger system and what are the patterns uh in society. The person in the environment. Right. Inequity. And so we start to to look at that, and we can actually see these patterns happen in very large groups or in in communities. But going back to breaking this, breaking this down, people who are in this dynamic often have difficulty identifying their own needs because they're so focused on managing the other person's experience and and how the other person feels.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

They typically self-abandon.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah. That's that's a really good term for for that. They often tolerate unacceptable treatment. We think about staying staying when it's too much, staying when things become harmful and making excuses for the other person or for the or for the experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely. And that's the classic, you know, you see the person who's oh, that poor person's still married to that alcoholic or that person who's a a a wife beater or something, you know, like the way people talk. And and you do, yeah, you do see that.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Aaron Powell, which drives the shame, by the way, because if you start to if you're the person who has been labeled the codependent, you start to hear people, the whispers of, oh, I can't believe they're still with that person, or I can't believe they're still doing this. Can you believe they put up with that?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Aaron Powell Family members will will stage interventions trying to get you know the codeponent person away from the violent or unpredictable or addicted person. But you I don't think we can stress this enough. It's about fear of abandonment. It's safer if for people who are in this kind of a dynamic, it feels safer than being alone or being without somebody.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Kenyon, this is one of my favorite things to bring up with everybody, not just clients, but the idea, you know, there's these statements that I make all the time. You can like if you were to ask my kids, they'd be like, oh my God, Dad, you say that all the time. This is one of them that negative attention is better than no attention. Absolutely. And our, as human beings, our fear of being alone, and and we talk about this all the time. If you go back through our other other podcasts, our conversations that we've had, our fear of being alone will outweigh everything else. And we will do anything we can to not experience that pain as human beings, because remember, we're just like hairless monkeys or mostly hairless monkeys. So we need to be part of like that, that group. We need to be part of the group to survive. It's very primal for us. So negative attention means we're still getting attention.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Right. It's better than neglect. Absolutely it's better than abandonment. Right. And there are even studies that I remember studying in grad school that were shocking to me at the time, indicating that children who had been abused were actually a little bit better off than children who had been neglected.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

And it's the same thing you're saying. It's you know, negative attention, any attention is better than none.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. There was when I was running running these family groups in the early 2000s, and it was a substance abuse clinic, and I love this. So we had a multifamily group. One of the one of the clients that we had, he he had said, he had said this phrase and it had stuck with me at that moment. And I've heard it, I've heard it since many times, but he had said, you know, the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. And that I think that really fits here too, because that is that idea that if I hate something, I'm still caring enough about it to make a proclamation about it. Totally. If it doesn't matter to me, then it doesn't exist. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

And there is nothing more painful, I think, honestly, than being totally dissed and dismissed. Just like, oh, that person does not care whether I live or die.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

But I I love that you brought up addiction in that context, because I mean codependency and addiction, whatever the addiction is, whatever the maladaptive behavior is, they are so intertwined. The partner, the family member, usually unconsciously, ends up enabling because fixing, controlling, caretaking gives them a sense of control, a sense of autonomy, a sense of agency. Agency, you always talk about that, in a situation that's really fundamentally out of control.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Absolutely. We need a purpose. And when we start looking at different roles within the family system, within relationships. Oh, I have a I have a purpose here. I'm I'm the fixer. I can caretake, I can I can solve this, I can make everything okay. That role starts to feel it doesn't always feel good, but it but it checks some boxes because it's better than it's better than watching something spin out of control and spiral and say, Oh my god, I have I have no no say in this.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Absolutely. And when it's a loved one, when it's an adult child or something, I mean like i you just watching them spin out of control, it is terribly painful to feel powerless in the face of that.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Right. Now, this isn't blame. This isn't this isn't something, and I I kind of pointed to this before, like codependency makes complete emotional sense. This isn't this isn't looking at somebody saying, Oh, you're cododependent, you're awful. This is something that makes sense. It's it's survival, it is it's helping, it's caring, but it's still there's still an element of it that needs to change. And that element is is that that piece about self-worth that if if if I don't do this, I'm going to be worse or I feel worse about myself.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Or I'm not going to survive. And that's the thing for you know, people who have grown up in environments where they needed to be codependent to survive and to adapt, understanding, oh wait, I'm an adult now, I'm no longer a child. And the threat that I grew up with in my family of origin, for example, is no longer real. But I'm still acting as if I need to be, you know, codependent with my boss or my partner or my kids. Right. Where the shadow remains, that's where we want to shed some light and introduce alternatives. But absolutely right. No, this is not about shaming or blaming people for making a very, as we said before, a very intelligent adaptation to an unpredictable environment.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Which is the issue I see in treatment primarily. And you know, I s I started this by saying, hey, let's let's talk about these words that get flagged for for us on social media and get overused. I I actually think the clinical world is doing some damage here because this is this is one of the words that gets thrown around a lot and thrown at people seeking help and trying to make sense of a really kind of painful situation and they get labeled something right away. And when they're labeled that, they're kind of put in a box and just like dismissed. Yeah. Oh, that person's just being codependent. Right. Or look at look at they can't, they don't have enough agency. And and you mentioned before, oh, they're weak. Can you believe that they're still there? And I think back about all the different substance use programs and treatment programs I've worked in, and I'm sure you can reflect on on your experience with that too. And think about how often these labels get thrown around on family members and friends and loved ones and partners and kids and everybody else trying to manage chaos.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

And how damaging it is just to throw a label on them.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

So we we need to be really clear that this isn't this isn't just even a social media issue. This is this is actually a shout out to like clinicians in the field. Please be careful about how you're labeling people with with these words, because codependency is not it's not a bad thing. It just means somebody cares. We have to help them understand where their where their line is.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Right. And that's where I think it's it's helpful to to say, okay, this is what codependency is not.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Like here are some non-codependent situations that are often mislabeled as codependent or codependency. Worrying about someone you love who's going through something really hard.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, that's not being codependent. That sounds like you're being a decent human being. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Wanting to support a friend, a partner, a loved one during a difficult time.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Feeling sad, maybe when someone that you care about is actually struggling.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Just feeling sad.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

It is sad. It is heartbreaking. Being emotionally affected by people close to you.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Well, that's that's what we're talking about. Like I I had mentioned earlier, if my partner is upset about something and I'm close and I'm connected with them and I love them, then that is correct. That is a correct response is for me to say, oh, is there something I can do to help them feel better? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's not a bad thing. That's just you caring. You know, you're you are emotionally like connected to that person. Right. So that's not codependent.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

And then also this is important: needing connection, needing closeness, needing intimacy, needing reassurance sometimes. Yeah. That doesn't mean you're needy and pathetic and maladapted.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

You know, I I talk about all these cognitive distortions and anxiety, and how often people with anxiety and and obsessions kind of how often people seek reassurance. And that's another thing that gets labeled as like really maladaptive or bad.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Right? Stop, stop seeking reassurance all the time, or hey, you just accept this what it is and move forward. But you're right. We need some reassurance sometimes. We need a cheerleader sometimes. We need someone to say, yeah, no, you are on the right path. This is working.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Absolutely. And I have no problem with giving people who need a lot of reassurance reassurance. I'll give you as much reassurance as you. need until you can start feeling more reassured.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah. Sometimes it is that is one of our jobs as therapists. It's not to fix the problem. It's to be there and believe in somebody and hold that while they can't.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

You know, and and if that takes reassurance, that takes reassurance. If that takes, you know, cheerleading and and kind of saying like, no, you got this, you got this, you got this. I'm I'm here, we're behind you, and you you gonna pull in the the family members, you pull in anybody you can, we're allowed to tip the scale. Absolutely but and I'm what I mean by that is we're allowed to put our finger on the scale so that it it tips in our favor. I love that. There's nothing there's nothing that says that we're not allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

No. And it's the same I remember when I was coming up as an artist I needed reassurance. It is so terrifying to like get in front of a microphone and sing and record for the first time. Of course. And I needed mentors I needed people around me to say that's really good. You should work on that. That's really good. You know what I think you could even I think you could do an even better take.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

And that's how I developed self-confidence.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Aaron Ross Powell it's only taken me about what 15 episodes and three three or four months to start to even feel remotely comfortable doing this. Exactly like no no no you got this and and other people have been absolutely amazing. It's like no this is great. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

It's yeah and again there's no shame in needing reassurance and in needing connection. You meant you mentioned interdependence before I did.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

So interdependence is not codependence. Interdependence is it's it's healthy. It's it is it's a healthy relationship it involves like mutual need, mutual care, mutual influence. You hear the same word over and over mutual, mutual right this idea that we affect each other.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Right? The it there is an open flow. Remember when I talked about boundaries I talked about them being the valve and that the valve, right. The the valve see I really felt like that was a good example. I don't know if it really resonated for everybody, but the valve and that's what I feel like there's a valve that we get to control like so if you and I are in a relationship and you get your valve, I get mine, and we get to kind of regulate that between us. That's mutual. Right. And we do that through communication verbal, nonverbal we do that through joking, we do that through whatever it might be. So that's we affect each other that way. If I change that valve and you don't change yours, so say yours is open and mine is kind of closed all right and I close mine off right away or maybe I pump a bunch of toxic stuff through it all of a sudden. Like I'm in a bad mood so I'm gonna pump a bunch of toxic stuff out of mine. And then all of a sudden you're like, whoa, I'm taking in way too much bad the the healthy thing is to regulate your valve. If there's an issue with boundaries or issue with codependence or you're too worried about pleasing me or making sure I'm okay, you're gonna leave that valve open, you're gonna take all the bad stuff in and then you're gonna feel really crappy about the whole interaction. And then you're still going to try and fix my valve. Right, right, right. I got to stop the toxic flow, the sewage. But that's that's kind of how I see this, right? When I think of like mutual the mutual part of a relationship and interdependence versus codependence. That's what interdependence is like hey I've got control of mine, you got control of yours. Now let's talk about how we're gonna regulate that.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Absolutely absolutely we are supposed to affect one another. In the end we have to m we have to basically control our own valves. Yeah. I can't be like reaching over and adjusting your valve for you.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

I can't it's not gonna work that's not that's not yeah we have to be responsible for ourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Aaron Ross Powell That's the thing. That's the thing you still have to you still need to have a self in the relationship. And if the relationship and my relationship with you for example becomes my only self then I've got a problem. Right. Something else I love in that's related in an ancillary fashion to this an idea from recovery is if somebody else is the problem there is no solution. And if somebody else is the solution you have a problem.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

That's interesting. If somebody else is the problem there's no solution. But if somebody else is the solution then it's a problem. It's a problem. And by the way important distinction it didn't say you're the problem. No. It said it's a problem.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

It's a problem. And and that goes back to agency. In the end we are driving our own cars here. My life we come into this world alone we we go out alone I mean we we we live our own lives it's a wonderful song by Trampled by Turtles.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

There's yeah alone I it's I've been like obsessed with it lately but it starts off you you come into this world alone you go out of this world alone but in the end it's just you and me.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah so go go give a quick listen to that. Kenyon let's talk about what this feels like from the inside when when codependency is happening what that internal experience feels like when this is just not when it's not working so that people know what to maybe look for or if they experience these feelings like to say hey maybe just question it.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah as you mentioned earlier I think you know like if they're happy I'm happy if they're not I'm not so relief when the other person is in a good mood and absolute fear, dread, loathing when they're not dread is one of my favorite words.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Dread is great. I think because it it I I just I love all that existential stuff but dread is it really because it mixes a bunch of feelings for me. When I think of dread I think it it it's kind of a it's one word that sums up a few other feelings for me. Like fear and like that anticipation, anxiety but not like the good anticipation, not like hey I'm about to like you know win something it's like no I'm about this is this is like oh it's just that's the sound I want to make is when I feel dread. Absolutely like I can't bring myself to to follow through with something because there's so much dread.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah dread is dread is wonderfully evocative. Constant monitoring being hypervigilant reading the room any room the moment I walk in where's the danger? Where's the danger? Scanning for danger.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Children of alcoholics have and adult children of alcoholics one of the most amazing ways to tell somebody's had some kind of traumatic like upbringing I think is how attentive are they to every little detail in the room. Right. And to every person like they walk into a room and they and and you walk out and they can tell you where everything was, what was going on, what was the feeling in the room like all of that in an instant.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

In my experience, there's usually something going on there. Or or they've been through some stuff where they had this this dynamic set up where they had to constantly monitor and assess for somebody else's poor mental health or substance use issues. And not just not just alcoholism and it's not just abuse, but poor mental health is my parent going to be okay are they mad? Is there anger? Are they passed out? Are they going to be there for dinner? Are they going to show up? All those questions, right? We can go through 400 different questions, but that's always kind of a tell in my mind. Absolutely that's the caretaking that reading the room but the reading the room the moment somebody walks in. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

It's the caretaking as distinct from caregiving we've talked about this in other episodes but caregiving is is is healthy. Caregiving is giving caretaking is actually has like kind of like a selfish or self-serving root to it.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

It's kind of strange because you refer to people as caretakers but they're they're they're caregivers.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

And I think they're that you know both terms get used but well a caretaker you as you mentioned before is like a for a property. That's right. There's a caretaker for the landscaping yeah a caregiver is somebody who works in a hospital that's a human.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Right right that's a human do working with other humans. Yeah. And so when we do that though, if there's guilt when you put yourself first so if you're doing that and then one day you say you need to put yourself first for something say you know what I I really have to take care of myself. I have to go do this and then there's a tremendous amount of guilt even in small ways. Absolutely that's that's another that's another kind of flag for how codependency feels internally.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Aaron Ross Powell and for those who are doing treatment for their codependency guilt can be really useful because often we tell people who are you know working on their codependency and trying to to move past it hey if you felt guilty if you're if you're feeling guilty right now it's probably means you you stood up for yourself. It probably means you're doing the right thing. It probably means you're taking care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah we talked about this with people pleasing right guilt guilt is the first symptom of withdrawal. Right. Right. And I and and I think it comes up with boundaries. It came up with gaslighting it's interesting guilt seems to be the withdrawal symptom for setting healthy limits and taking back a sense of agency.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Aaron Ross Powell you pointed out something too about guilt. It doesn't mean we're doing something bad necessarily it does often mean that we're doing something new.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Aaron Ross Powell It means we're doing something new and it means it feels like a mistake. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

But it's not and whenever we try something new it feels like it can feel like a mistake. I'm not doing this right. I need to practice I watch my son learning to skateboard and it's like he's you know I see that in in in in motion he's trying new things he's trying to to Ollie he's trying to go up the ramp. He's learning to that he's gonna fall a lot and you know the more he falls the better he gets. Right. And I think that's the same for all of us trying new things.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

There's this this vague sense I hear this a lot this vague kind of feeling of not knowing what someone likes or what they want or what they feel. It's always like kind of separate from them. And it's and and I hear this so often of just like what are you into? What do you want to do? What are you and people have a hard time kind of pinpointing it and it's because their emotional state rests so much on what another person is what their state is.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

That they lose their sense of self. Try asking a codependent where they want to go to dinner. Wherever you'd like what do you yeah exactly there's a resentment that comes with part of the cost of codependency there's a resentment that that builds quietly it's really confusing or it can be what makes it confusing? Because the person is saying well I chose this no one's holding a gun to my head to take care of this person.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah I'm choosing to stay in this relationship I'm choosing to be here I'm choosing so it's my own damn fault.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Right and yet why am I so angry? Why is there so much resentment?

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah why do I feel exhausted also I think that's the other part of it is what so managing all that resentment which does build and I think people you know it it it's so kind of covert it's exhausting. Yeah it's exhausting trying to manage my own life and just manage my own feelings and the rapid changes throughout the day and identifying them and not reacting to them. Can you imagine having to manage another human being's emotions on top of yours?

SPEAKER_01 33:48

That's a full plate.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

That is a full plate well you end up giving up yours, right? So that's what happens in in a codependent relations I don't mean you, Kenya. No, no I think that's what happens is that we it's it's so overwhelming the plate is so overful that we end up giving up any of our needs and then we're exhausted trying to manage another person's needs and then but on paper it doesn't look like that. It's like well I'm showing them so much love.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah I love this person. I'm married to this person or this is my child. Well that's confusing. Right. A huge I think component of that exhaustion too is hypervigilance. And if we talk about like how this affects our bodies if hypervigilance is our baseline and it often is for the codependent person, you're always scanning for danger. As you said, you're walking into a room you're you're you're looking with you you're you're you're clocking everybody's vibe, everybody's mood, where everything is, you're holding your breath a lot without realizing it.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Oh yeah. You're or you're breathing really, really shallowly I hear that from people all the time. I I do I was I didn't take a breath. Right. Just I'm reminded of uh you're talking about all the the body scenes it reminds me so much of the fight or flight freezer fawn back again. Here it is it's at the root of every episode. Somebody's gonna call me and be like dude you got to stop. Yeah but seriously the the anxiety response those those sympathetic and parasympathetic uh states so the holding your breath you don't even realize it and then that physical sense of relief when the person leaves the room. Oh I know that one followed by guilt though because when when they left because you're feeling relief like how dare I actually feel better that they're not here and I don't have to be on how many times do I hear from a person who's working on their codependency in therapy am I a terrible person?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Am I a terrible person for that? And it's like the moment they start standing up for themselves, the moment they start leaning into their own agency. Yeah. Immediately that's the question oh am I a terrible person? Hypervigilance it's you know we can go on and on about it. It means your nervous system is always scanning for danger. Will Robinson danger Will Robinson always watching for what might be potentially coming down the pike. So in a codependent dynamic that scanner is always focused, laser focused on the other person.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Aaron Ross Powell There is going to be a very distinct line for the people who understood your Will Robinson reference and the people that don't it's basically going to be nobody understands my Will Robinson and that's I'm totally okay with that. That's okay. Love it embrace it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Just be you Kenyon I wasn't scanning for scanning for relevance or approval. I was not scanning for relevance or approval. Trevor Burrus I approve so that's enough okay so let's move we could talk about this all day again as I mentioned let's let's let's talk about what actually helps when it comes to codependence yeah how do we deal with this what what what what do we do when we're kind of like in this in this space I always say awareness before action.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Aaron Ross Powell I like that I like that tell me more about awareness before action we always want to skip to like just what's the quick fix?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

How do I fix this? How do I fix it? How do I change this? I'm not gonna change if I don't know what the hell I'm doing and when I'm doing it. So just notice hey did I just reorganize my whole day around you know my partner's whim mood?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Or what I assumed their whim or mood would be.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Ooh even better.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Right. But but just notice it what was happening what was my did I have a plan before that happened? Before everything got sort of thrown out of whack? But just like being aware we really are I mean it's a fact. We're not going to be able to make sustainable change or growth before you know that action isn't going to happen before awareness.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

This is like the definition of therapy. It really is like how many people are like I just need this change. I need this change what do what do I do? How many times a day do you gas? What should I do? What should I do? What should I do? Just notice just notice the pattern before we fix it. Because if we if we notice it, we have awareness of it, we get to start really reflecting on how many different ways it takes place and how it takes on a life of its own and where it kind of creeps in in other situations. So I I love that Kenyon I love the the awareness before action I think w one of the ways I I really love to address any of these things and I I tell people this all the time look at where your feet are.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Locate yourself.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yes liter but literally look at your feet. When I tell people that I'm like look at where your feet are like oh yeah in in my life I can no no no really actually take a moment slide back in your chair and look at where your feet are because it it helps you stop it helps the cycle stop it helps all the thoughts everything and you're just checking in on yourself. And from that you say okay my feet are on the ground maybe you're sitting maybe you're standing maybe you're barefoot maybe you're not it brings you back to the present and you're no longer in past or future thinking. I love that and that and that really helps you to identify what you feel right now and you can separate from what other people are feeling. And that's that's I think that's actually really good practice for every day even if we're not dealing with codependency issues. It's it's really that's a really good practice just consistently checking where your where your feet are, locate yourself.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Absolutely remember that we have a body that's all the the body based stuff that I love to do with dance movement therapy too. It's it's like how do we get back into our bodies? Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Well so we can there's a couple things we do when we're locating ourselves we can journal we have therapy right we have creative expression anything that can make me separate from us or other more visible.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah. To to reinstate selfhood I think is what you're talking about there.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Absolutely and and again like let's go easy on ourselves. This takes time and it takes practice. Absolutely if you're not in the habit of remembering that you are a distinct person in a body. You talk about this all the time not even just in the context of codependency, but tolerating discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

This is the biggest struggle in existence right now. I think I think if if somebody were to say what's the thing you see that everybody's really having a hard time with it's this practicing sitting with discomfort. We are incapable of of tolerating anything uncomfortable right now. More yeah more so than everyone every age every demographic it is just we can't handle it. No.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

And discomfort shows up in a lot of different ways it can show up as like boredom right I can't tolerate being bored be bored. Yeah be bored. Try explore being bored if you're waiting online don't just take out your phone.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Right. So we have to tolerate discomfort and especially in working in in kind of dealing with codependency we have to we have that means letting someone feel what they feel without stepping in to fix it. Oh man, this is this is one of the hardest things as a therapist to do. How often do you sit across from somebody or in a conversation and you're hearing so much you know heartache or pain or you're watching them kind of like with destructive behavior, any of it. And you might have some really solid suggestions or or like hey just you want to help. Totally but sometimes you it's better to not it's better to actually sit with it and not actually fix it, soften it, manage it. But as a family member too, it's like yeah we have to other people have they have to walk their path.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

It's not on us to fix other people's issues. It's not on us to fix our family members' issues.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Aaron Ross Powell by arguably by by doing that by obvious by always ensuring a soft landing that's part of enabling too within the language of recovery.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

You talk about you don't want to prevent somebody from hitting their bottom.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

And the context for that is you know if somebody has a substance use disorder or another maladaptive behavior that's addictive. You want them to actually face the consequences for that behavior as opposed to just cleaning up their mess because you're so scared for them. If you continue to do that, that's enabling and they never really learn the lesson.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah and we're not we're not withdrawing our care for someone we're withdrawing the control.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Aaron Ross Powell We're withdrawing control. Control is the drug of choice I like to say for the substance of choice for the codependent is control.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Aaron Ross Powell is the drug of choice for many. Yeah. Yeah but you're right it's it is the other thing is rebuilding our own lives literally like literally not figuratively literally identifying things that are only yours. You can identify a new friendship, a practice like you know maybe it's going to the gym, maybe it's meditating, maybe it's yoga, maybe it's photography I don't know bird watching I don't know we're both men of a certain age bird watching seems to be like a really good individual birding they call it birding. Sorry not bird watching. Birding birding and then you know the other thing and obviously what we always kind of push for is get support just nothing nothing moves in isolation. We don't move in isolation. We need in that's individual therapy you talk all the time about Al-Anon, Naranon 12 step support groups there's you mentioned before we were before we started recording today, you told me there was codependence anonymous codependence anonymous yeah yeah tell me about that it's almost like a there's a lot of crossover with with Al Anon and ACOA and Naranon.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

But yeah I mean it it's codependency being the central conversation for those kinds of support groups and isn't necessarily while codependency is often as we mentioned before a symptom part and parcel of substance use disorders, you know, codependence anonymous is not limited to that context. No. It's anybody who's felt themselves codependently tied to another person, who's had that kind of a relationship with somebody, whether or not the person is an addict, quote unquote addict or

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Aaron Powell Right. Well, this is again this the codependency was a term that was was born from addiction research. But I think what we see is this is actually it is a re a relational phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Aaron Ross Powell That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

And so the pattern develops in relationship, right? We we the codependency kind of it develops, it expands in a relationship. We need relationships to heal too. And I think that that's the the takeaway out of this, and that I I I love this idea. We are relational beings. We can't get better in a vacuum. We can't get better going away. The program that I had I had worked for, last community-based program, Alan Horn, you know, it's a program for assertive community treatment. In New York. And in New York and in Boston and Arlington. Unbelievable program. That was one of the core messages from Dr. Allen Horn was people don't get better in a vacuum. They don't get better being sequestered and sent away from people. You have to get better in your community. You have to get better in relationships with people. So we look at where do you find those healthy relationships close to you, close to your tribe, to your group, to your culture, to your your home.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I think that's that's such an important part of this. So the pattern develops in a relationship. We can we can change that dynamic and insert healthy relationships to to help improve that. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

That's why groups, I'm a huge proponent of groups. Because I think I've seen people get better, even in peer-to-peer, you know, just in in support groups. Yeah. And the killer here, the irony, is that often the maladaptive behavior, whether it's codependency or substance use disorder, the impetus from that maladaptive behavior is for us to isolate. We feel shame, we don't want to connect with other people, we're frightened, we're exhausted, and so we want to withdraw. And that actually exacerbates the symptoms and makes the condition worse.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Aaron Ross Powell All of these things that shame shame is that dark, warm environment that you talked about before, where like all the bad things grow in the environment of shame.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

And most of these, most of the things we talk about often breed a feeling of shame.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Aaron Powell They really do.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Shame is I am a mistake. That's that feeling. Guilt is I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

That's a differentiation.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Can you just to close today, I want to reiterate because I think we touched on this a few different ways, right? Within the mental health field, within interpersonal relationships, with the families, codependency is not a character flaw. It's not a weakness. No, it's not this sign that you love too much or you're you just care too much for this person or that you're there's something wrong with you. This is this is serious. It's a pattern that made complete sense at some point, probably long before the relationship you're currently in where like codependency is showing up. Right? This is this is something that's been steeped in survival and and just in trying to minimize some kind of pain in the past.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Absolutely. And the work here, if we're gonna work on our codependency issues, it's not to stop caring. It's not to become this calloused being. No. The work is to it's it's to build enough of yourself back, enough agency that you have something to give from. We always talk about this, like putting the oxygen mask on your own face before you put it on somebody else's face that you want to take care of. If we're really gonna give something of value to other people, if we're really gonna care well for other people, we need to be giving from our abundance. If I'm borrowing from my principle rather than my interest to take care of you, and I'm you know self-negating, self-abandoning, I'm not gonna have anything left to give.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

It's not I'm not gonna be of any use to anybody.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

No, and that's not selfish. Holding on to your, as you said, your principle rather than your interest, right? Holding on to whatever's in your in your bucket, that foundation. You need that. The good stuff grows out of that. So you hold on to that, and then you can you can harvest whatever comes off of the top for other people.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

How's that? How's that for How's that for a closer? How's that for a closer? Harvest what your soil you know uses.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Hey, I live I live in the country now. I am all for the agricultural metaphor.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

That that deep Connecticut country.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I love it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. There's a stop and shop five minutes away, but I still feel like I'm in the country. Thanks for listening to Lumen. If today's conversation resonated with you, we encourage you to follow, review, and share Lumen with anyone you think would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

We'll be back soon with another conversation designed to bring a little more light to the human condition. Thanks. I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW. And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Lumen is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you're experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional. I'm Chris.